You can always find these abuses like this, just like you can identify predator priests who don't represent ALL priests. How about if I were to post a video of a Christmas Midnight Mass celebrated by Pope JP II in Latin using the Novus Ordo in St.Peter's Basilica?
After reading some of the comments above, I want to make it clear that I grew up with the TLM which was only replaced by the Novus Ordo (NO) one year before I graduated from college. Because I celebrated Mass in Latin using the NO in Rome and in other parts of the world, I appreciated the fact that Catholics from different countries from all over the world had no problem following the Mass. Most Catholics in the world today never attended a TLM. While the 15-20 minute daily “low mass” in Latin was not very inspiring, people like myself who grew up serving Mass and memorizing the prayers at the foot of the altar in Latin miss the “high Masses” complete with Gregorian Chant and incense. When people from different countries go to Rome and attend Mass in St Peter’s Basilica, they can all follow it easily because it’s the same NO Mass they have at home only now in Latin. Attending a TLM Mass today for many Catholics could be as foreign to them as if they attended an Eastern Rite Mass in Greek, Ukrainian, Arabic, etc. How many people heard, “It was nice to be able to go to church in that foreign country and be able to follow the Mass”?
How do we go back? Or how do we go forward? I do not know. Most Catholics now know less Latin than ever. But Fr. Donald Kloster, a cancelled priest down around San Antone now, has released some impressive surveys that show that in the main only those who attend the TLM actually tend to believe in the truths of the Catholic faith; and furthermore, this is the only segment of the church that is demographically growing.
It's not just the Mass, the language, or the particular form. You need good, holy priests and not closeted frauds. I admit that Catholics who attend the TLM tend to believe the authentic teachings of the Church and dioceses that are shepherded by straight bishops have more vocations and better attended services. Because these families rejected the pro-LGBTQ agenda of Pope Francis, I believe he saw them and TLM Mass communities as obstacles to his efforts to get Catholics to accept homosexual relationships on par with heterosexual marriage. Note that you don't find straight bishops opposing Catholics who attend TLM like you do gay bishops.
Father Gene I have the upmost respect for you and gratitude for all you do for the victims of clergy abuse, but I believe your solution would deepen the wounds and the ever mounting tensions and divisions among those who identify as Roman Catholics.
Is the Latin language itself important? Yes, and for many reasons. As I understand it Latin is an extremely precise language and still lives as a root language and has theological, legal and medical use. It is difficult to try and change the meaning of Latin words and that is a very important reason why those who are passionate about preserving the Catholic Faith and Church as Jesus Christ founded it are insistent about the TLM. We have seen our Catholic Faith continually watered down to the point where many Catholics believe we are now compromising with Freemasonry, Satanism (including ordained priests who lead double lives and perform Black Masses) and various forms of paganism including the worship or invocation of false gods and demons, not to mention all the new age beliefs that also worm their way in.
The fact that in the TLM the priest faces the altar of God, as opposed to the Novus Ordo where the priest faces the people, is absolutely key to how we relate to God and live out our Catholic faith.
Many truly faithful Catholics are coming to realize just how devastating modernism has been to Catholic Church. They see clearly how our universal Catholic Church is being manipulated to become a church that embraces universalism promoting the lie that no souls are in danger of spending an eternity in hell. It’s reaching a point where many believe that the schools of Sedevacantism offer the only rational and reasonable position because the head of the church, many in the hierarchy,have gone into full blown apostasy so that the head has separated itself from the true Mystical Body of Christ. And those who want to remain faithful to Jesus Christ and His Church do not want to be complicit with the “ape of a church” because of their great love for both God and other human beings. They believe the salvation of souls is a primary concern and that only Truth Incarnate leads to salvation.
We had Latin English Missals where texts were displayed side by side in elementary school. This isn’t an insurmountable problem, but a “false peace” is no peace at all.
When Bergoglio claimed to be pope I said I had “set my face like flint” against the “new religion of the synodal church.”
And now under new leadership I say that I have “set my face like flint against unity at all costs, a false unity, that sacrifices Truth itself.”
I have the deepest respect for those who attend the TLM who I have found often uphold the authentic teachings of the Church better than most of the Catholics who attend NO services. I wandered if homosexual clerics who know TLM Catholics are less inclined to buy the James Martin arguments on homosexuality are trying to shut you down as threats to their attempts to change the Church’s teaching on homosexuality? I can understand your point about not facing the people which makes more sense when one’s NO prayers are not as vertical as those of the TLM.
I never thought I'd agree in essence with Francis I, but the TLM "liturgy war" is, I must admit, a cover for war against Vatican II. All the "Latin indults" in the world will never satisfy these people, and Bergoglio knew it. They reject ecumenism entirely, abhor the idea of Church as "the Pilgrim People of God ", and I think in their heart of hearts they would disavow Nostra Aetate.
That's why it's important to distinguish between the anti-Vatican II Catholics who will not accept some of the valid improvements/corrections that were made during the Council, verses the good Catholics who attend TLM services looking for an inspiring lilturgy with good preaching that helps them lead good Catholic/Christian lives. I liked the fact that Catholics from all over the world could follow and relate to the Novus Ordo Mass in Latin that I celebrated in St. Peter's Basilica. One commentator wrote that a priest in New York successfully did what I suggested. I'll have to look up that priest and see if he's still alive.
Hey, when I meet someone who actually endorses [and knows] Trent, Vatican I, the Syllabus, and Pascendi on top of Vincent, Augustine, Chrysostom and Bonaventure, I'll gladly listen to their view on Vatican II.
Don’t know all that. Love Vatican I. Pius IX was the longest reigning Pope in history after St. Peter hisself plus he declared not only Papal Infallibilty but the Immaculate Conception—endorsed four years later by the Queen of Heaven at Lourdes.
To me, not having read all the ambiguous blah blah blah documents, V2 sure seems like a dumpster fire for true devotion and any actual knowledge of the Faith.
Fr. Gomulka, where’s that SpringTime ya’ll are talking about? For me, like I’ve heard many you get T. L. M. priests say, I’m just waiting for all these 60’s ol’ geezers—and their spawn like Poof Martin (the Charlotte Massacre one, not the Park Avenue one—although a pox on him too) — to die out.
Just keep in mind the labyrinthine stacks of verbiage in Vatican II are bigger than all the previous councils combined. You could read all the other councils in a year in less time than wading through the VII docs, and thereby be able to spot the most egregious departures people make either by means of VII or its "Spirit"
I discovered the charges against him that I just read online. Sad. But you admit that many people found the NO Mass in Latin in Manhattan with all the "bells and whistles" to be inspiring? I can remember bringing sailors and Marines and their families from Naples to attend midnight Latin NO Mass in St. Peter's celebrated by JP II. A number of them returned to Naples saying that that was the most inspiring Mass they ever attended.
Do you know more about the charges being dismissed? It's sad that the media report accusations, but don't report the charges being dismissed. That happened in Buffalo when two seminarians were maliciously prosecuted for protesting outside the Buffalo Chancery. The charges were dismissed and most media outlets never reported the outcome.
"These people" -- who?? -- "reject ecumenism entirely" -- do they?? which 'ecumenism'? The ecumenism of the 'spirit of V2,' i.e., false irenicism (also rejected by the real V2)? Such a vague charge ironically smacks of the kind of arrogant triumphalism that V2 (in theory) was supposed to put to rest. In reality, knee jerk dismissals of "these people" who dare to question V2 has become its own kind of embarrassingly unintelligent triumphalism. It's the gross hypocrisy of the crowd who self-righteously exclude anyone who doesn't measure up to their arbitrary standards of inclusiveness. Whatever happened to that talk about 'dialogue,' people??
More than just the beautiful TLM went south with Vatican Two !
Our pastor taught us Religion class three times a week giving us blow by blow decisions that were being proposed and implemented during Vatican Two.
When he said that seminarians were no longer going to be taught that Satan was a real entity and evil was really only in the hearts of men, I raised my hand and asked how they would believe in God then when they became priests?
First, it is historically disprovable that if the Novus Ordo had been done in Latin, the movement to retain the TLM would never have happened. Una Voce, which was established in 1965 first of all to defend Latin & chant, pivoted in 1969 to defend the old Roman Rite, which they could see had been gutted in the reforms of Paul VI. And this continues to the present: given the option of a Latin Novus Ordo or a TLM, educated traditionally minded Catholics choose the latter, it's not even a struggle. We ARE aware of the profound differences because (a) the rites are actually quite different, this is not hard to see, and (b) most of us have missals and we read them.
Second, if there is such a diversity of rites in the Catholic Church, why would it be harmful to have more than one version of the Roman one? As Ratzinger says, before the council there were parishes that celebrated the Dominican rite, and some the Carmelite. We can handle this diversity. Uniformity and unity are two very different things.
Third, the Eastern rites traditionally used sacral languages that developed out of vernaculars that were long since no longer spoken. Just because in the USA the most common language for Eastern Catholic worship is English doesn't mean that historically they were unfamiliar with the concept of a language reserved for divine worship. Plus, you note that Christ used Hebrew for His prayers. By the time of the apostles, Hebrew had LONG since ceased to be the vernacular. Jesus Himself sets the example.
Four, the Latin Novus Ordo is a non-starter for several reasons, most of which I go into here:
Thank you for your participation in the discussion in response to my article, “The Liturgy Wars.” I find that the comments following certain articles are sometimes more interesting than the article itself. It will be interesting to see not only what Pope Leo XIV will do with Traditionis Custodes, but if he, like his three predecessors, will continue to allow bishops who engage in or cover up abuse to go undisciplined. If millions of Catholics have left the Catholic Church over the past decade, it’s because of moral and doctrinal issues, far more than the way Mass is celebrated. Nevertheless, I pray that your prayer life will strengthen your faith, and your faith will deepen your prayer life. Oremus pro invicem, GTG
"If millions of Catholics have left the Catholic Church over the past decade, it’s because of moral and doctrinal issues, far more than the way Mass is celebrated."
This, in fact, is certainly not true of Catholics in the 1960s and 1970s, who were barely aware of clerical sex abuse. But still, millions stopped going to church and there is not only anecdotal evidence but documented evidence that for many of them it was the craziness with the Mass that pushed them out the door. The working classes and men particularly hated the Novus Ordo, as Cardinal Heenan predicted in 1967.
Here are two interesting articles based on sociological data:
I'm looking at this from the perspective of ministering to the some 99% of Catholics who do not attend the TLM. One commentator wrote how one priest in Manatten very successfully did what I suggested. The response he described was similar to attending Christmas Midnight Mass in St. Peter's conducted by Pope John Paul II in Latin using the Novus Ordo. I disagree that the NO was never intended to be celebrated in Latin. Having celebrated Mass many times in Latin in St. Peter's, Catholics from all over the world in attendance could follow it well because it was the same Mass they were used to only now in Latin for the international congregation. With priest friends like Father Jim Altman and others who celebrate the TLM, I'm not saying that it shouldn't be allowed. I'm just saying I believe the Church lost something very beautiful when it adopted the Novus Ordo the way it did by not offering it both in English and in Latin. I would bet you, if the bishop allowed me as an abuse whistleblower to pastor one of the parishes in my town, and if I offered one of the Sunday Masses in Latin using the Novus Ordo accompanied by Gregorian Chant, I believe it would be very well attended. PS. While I wrote that Jesus prayed in Hebrew, he spoke Aramaic and probably Greek. I laugh when I read comments from some people (not you), who argue that the TLM dates back to Christ himself.
Interposing here - there is an inherent assumption that people cannot understand any language other than their mother tongue and that words are the only mechanism by which we understand the world. First, if one is interested, one can read /study to acquaint oneself sufficiently to participate in a liturgy that is somewhat more challenging than the lowest bar. Why is it that worship of God is required to have no effort?
Secondly, if one is completely incapable of study or comprehension in a foreign language (simply visit Europe and you will discover those who speak many languages), then even without words, one can still absorb the liturgy. There is an assumption that the responses given in the NO have more meaning than those in the TLM. As the TLM responses are pretty straightforward, we do understand what we are saying - and I am not so sure that the flat English responses in the NO evince any greater reverence. Finally, as a nine year old child, when our priest celebrated Mass during the week, it was a low TLM - very unsophisticated and plain, no beauty - a sparse hall for a church and a very dull, uncharismatic priest. I took myself off to Mass every morning, on my own, (without parents), because I loved the traditional Mass. I did not understand a word of Latin, but I felt something that I responded to. So, to assume that, in order to worship, one must understand is to miss to nuance of worship - it is not about control - it is in a way, about the opposite - just submitting- and the traditional Mass allows this in every way for each person differently
Thank you for your participation in the discussion in response to my article, “The Liturgy Wars.” I find that the comments following certain articles are sometimes more interesting than the article itself. It will be interesting to see not only what Pope Leo XIV will do with Traditionis Custodes, but if he, like his three predecessors, will continue to allow bishops who engage in or cover up abuse to go undisciplined. If millions of Catholics have left the Catholic Church over the past decade, it’s because of moral and doctrinal issues, far more than the way Mass is celebrated. Nevertheless, I pray that your prayer life will strengthen your faith, and your faith will deepen your prayer life. Oremus pro invicem, GTG
I understand. It's just that there's a reason the Latin Novus Ordo never took off, and that's because it was DESIGNED for easy comprehension. Latin is never going to be for easy comprehension; but its use is good for very different reasons, which I won't go into here, and that's why the TLM should remain in Latin (and not be done into the vernacular, as some have suggested as a "way forward").
I do agree, however, that a Latin Novus Ordo with chant would be well attended, mostly because the alternatives are so lacking!
Yes, it's a shame that some folks never take time to study the history of liturgy. It's quite fascinating.
It was designed for easy comprehension? Well, maybe; but still, the notion that it serves that purpose seems facile at best. From your article, Shaw writes: "The Novus Ordo is geared towards verbal comprehension. ... Yes, we get the message, at the intellectual, word-by-word level." But really?? Then why does the priest, after listening to/reading the scriptures plainly read in the vernacular, constantly spout sheer nonsense in his homily? Why do the people, after reciting the Creed in the vernacular, not actually understand (or believe!) the articles of belief they have just recited? The Catholic faith is designed for those who love God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength, not for those seeking easy comprehension. Changing the language does nothing to change that fact. Design for easy comprehension requires changing the faith, not just the language.
Indians do not speak Syriac and yet, aside from recent meddling in their liturgy too, they have been in union with Rome now despite their past adoption of the rite as an act of schism due to disagreements with Portuguese Jesuits:
An advantage TLM Catholics have over the Novus Ordo Catholics is that we TLM Catholics intimately know both forms of the Mass. Here’s why I prefer the TLM:
1. Ad orientem
2. It is seamless and flowing
3. The priest checks his ego in the sacristy and becomes in persona Christi
4. Altar boys take pride in their duties and the precision in which they execute them
5. Only consecrated hands touch the consecrated hosts
6. The faithful are dressed modestly and in their best clothes
7. No socializing in the pews, before, during or after Mass
8. Priest follows the rubrics and wears the proper colored vestments with no ad lib pablum
9. Priest reads the Epistle and the Gospel
10. Only beautiful Gregorian Chant and Catholic Hymns are sung
11. Pipe organ
12. Sermons that are short, powerful and based in Catholic doctrine
13. Dozens upon dozens upon dozens of young children, toddlers and infants, many of them restless, and some of them crying, with a big brother or big sister helping mom and dad to keep decorum
14. Pews filled with the most genuine, generous and faithful Catholics.
15. Little, ancient ladies praying their rosaries
16. At least two priests hearing Confessions before and during Mass up to the Sanctus
17. If not in the state of Grace and I don’t go to Communion, there’s no shame as dozens around me are in the same predicament.
It’s not about the Latin. It’s about every action, word and song directed to God, creating an atmosphere where I find it easy to surrender my heart and soul and mind to God for that 60-90 minutes.
Thank you for your participation in the discussion in response to my article, “The Liturgy Wars.” I find that the comments following certain articles are sometimes more interesting than the article itself. It will be interesting to see not only what Pope Leo XIV will do with Traditionis Custodes, but if he, like his three predecessors, will continue to allow bishops who engage in or cover up abuse to go undisciplined. If millions of Catholics have left the Catholic Church over the past decade, it’s because of moral and doctrinal issues, far more than the way Mass is celebrated. Nevertheless, I pray that your prayer life will strengthen your faith, and your faith will deepen your prayer life. Oremus pro invicem, GTG
At 74, I remember the TLM when it was the only game in town for Latin Rite Catholics. I disliked the original Novus Ordo not because it was in English or different but because it was ugly. As an aside the newer English Masses ordered by Pope Benedict are better. But there was no excuse for the original mess. Thomas Cramer produced a Church of England liturgy in the 1600s that is beautiful.
Thank you for your participation in the discussion in response to my article, “The Liturgy Wars.” I find that the comments following certain articles are sometimes more interesting than the article itself. It will be interesting to see not only what Pope Leo XIV will do with Traditionis Custodes, but if he, like his three predecessors, will continue to allow bishops who engage in or cover up abuse to go undisciplined. If millions of Catholics have left the Catholic Church over the past decade, it’s because of moral and doctrinal issues, far more than the way Mass is celebrated. Nevertheless, I pray that your prayer life will strengthen your faith, and your faith will deepen your prayer life. Oremus pro invicem, GTG
The underlying question here is, what's wrong with the Novus Ordo, if anything? To propose NO in Latin suggests the problem is just (or mainly) the use of the vernacular. I think very few people would agree with that assessment of the issue.
Thank you for your participation in the discussion in response to my article, “The Liturgy Wars.” I find that the comments following certain articles are sometimes more interesting than the article itself. It will be interesting to see not only what Pope Leo XIV will do with Traditionis Custodes, but if he, like his three predecessors, will continue to allow bishops who engage in or cover up abuse to go undisciplined. If millions of Catholics have left the Catholic Church over the past decade, it’s because of moral and doctrinal issues, far more than the way Mass is celebrated. Nevertheless, I pray that your prayer life will strengthen your faith, and your faith will deepen your prayer life. Oremus pro invicem, GTG
While people want to acknowledge shortcomings in the NO, unfortunately, they don't want to acknowledge shortcomings in the TLM. Did you know that the TLM Missal did not include parables such as the Prodigal Son, along with the Pharisee and the Tax collector, because the TLM excluded the Gospels according to Luke and Mark? The TLM and the NO both have their strengths and weaknesses.
I think for many partisans of the Usus Antiquior, your argument is like comparing one's mother to the whore that your father has been seeing, and saying, "Well, but, did you know your mother isn't as well read as the whore? They both have their strengths and weaknesses." The point is that the New Thing, whatever its incidentally charming features you might wish to point to, is based on fundamentally corrupt premises. (FWIW, personally, if you give me the Latin NO and throw in ad orientem, altar rails, and chant, I'd much appreciate your efforts.)
Thank you for your participation in the discussion in response to my article, “The Liturgy Wars.” I find that the comments following certain articles are sometimes more interesting than the article itself. It will be interesting to see not only what Pope Leo XIV will do with Traditionis Custodes, but if he, like his three predecessors, will continue to allow bishops who engage in or cover up abuse to go undisciplined. If millions of Catholics have left the Catholic Church over the past decade, it’s because of moral and doctrinal issues, far more than the way Mass is celebrated. Nevertheless, I pray that your prayer life will strengthen your faith, and your faith will deepen your prayer life. Oremus pro invicem, GTG
Saint Jogn Chrysostom got way more down to brass tacks than that, and every single thing he said was correct.
Aside from that, it was replaced by genuflecting in the 1962 missal in the prayer, which is inappropriate, and the new prayers are blasphemous outright.
I respect your take on this but I think some quarters of the traditionalist movement take issue with certain prayers being dropped before the 1970 Missal as well as innovations in the texts of the Eucharistic prayers. This is why Bouyer, Bugnini and others crop up in discussions. True, many TLM attendees don't know much Latin and even less Greek (thanks to Ben Jonson for that one-liner), but I do wonder about the intentions of the Council fathers when it came to expressing the meaning of the Eucharist in the prayers that are used every week.
Augustinus, I got to a TLM high mass last night (Ascension). I don’t get to often anymore unfortunately, only a few times a year. But I noticed during the prayer of consecration how quiet it was. Everyone knew what the priest was praying even though it was silent. You could have heard a pin drop even though there were large families there. It does not matter if you know any Latin or Greek, you know what is going on by the atmosphere, the beautiful music, the smell of the incense. I felt like I was in heaven. It turned out the sermon was about the fact that the kingdom of heaven is here in the church.
Thank you for your participation in the discussion in response to my article, “The Liturgy Wars.” I find that the comments following certain articles are sometimes more interesting than the article itself. It will be interesting to see not only what Pope Leo XIV will do with Traditionis Custodes, but if he, like his three predecessors, will continue to allow bishops who engage in or cover up abuse to go undisciplined. If millions of Catholics have left the Catholic Church over the past decade, it’s because of moral and doctrinal issues, far more than the way Mass is celebrated. Nevertheless, I pray that your prayer life will strengthen your faith, and your faith will deepen your prayer life. Oremus pro invicem, GTG
This is it! The NO even in Latin with ‘bells and smells’ is not the TLM. Since discovering our liturgical heritage (Thanks to Pope Benedict XVI) I have assisted at the TLM as much as possible. I had almost 4 years of daily Mass in the EF before our Bishop stopped it. In those 4 years I overcame habitual sin to a large extent, and began to recognise the fullness of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Now back to daily NO it is such a struggle. There is no silence, no time I can truly pray from the heart. If I was hard of hearing at least I could take my hearing aids out, but I have hyper acute hearing meaning microphoned Masses are seriously painful. I have to church-hop I don’t belong in any of them. But it is not about me - it’s about Almighty God, and the reverence and honour due to Him.
Nothing in the NO offered versus populum makes us realise the Sacrifice is offered to God., even in the vernacular. This is why I think that allowing versus populum is the most damaging change. Very few priests or laity understand the Mass now. I’m not saying I do either - the majority of my life has been at the NO., I’m well aware of what I lack. But now I have had a glimpse of heaven - I do all I can to be at the TLM.
I am not against the TLM. What I am suggesting is that many Catholics may be inspired as you are with the TLM by attending a NO Mass in Latin with Gregorian Chant, etc.
Thank you for your participation in the discussion in response to my article, “The Liturgy Wars.” I find that the comments following certain articles are sometimes more interesting than the article itself. It will be interesting to see not only what Pope Leo XIV will do with Traditionis Custodes, but if he, like his three predecessors, will continue to allow bishops who engage in or cover up abuse to go undisciplined. If millions of Catholics have left the Catholic Church over the past decade, it’s because of moral and doctrinal issues, far more than the way Mass is celebrated. Nevertheless, I pray that your prayer life will strengthen your faith, and your faith will deepen your prayer life. Oremus pro invicem, GTG
Thank you for your participation in the discussion in response to my article, “The Liturgy Wars.” I find that the comments following certain articles are sometimes more interesting than the article itself. It will be interesting to see not only what Pope Leo XIV will do with Traditionis Custodes, but if he, like his three predecessors, will continue to allow bishops who engage in or cover up abuse to go undisciplined. If millions of Catholics have left the Catholic Church over the past decade, it’s because of moral and doctrinal issues, far more than the way Mass is celebrated. Nevertheless, I pray that your prayer life will strengthen your faith, and your faith will deepen your prayer life. Oremus pro invicem, GTG
Fr. Gomulka, You’re most welcome. Well you’ve got a good readership.
If men like you were made bishops and offered the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in the manner you suggest your plan might have had a chance of working. That’s the only way for the cross pollination of Pope Benedict’s idea in Summorum Pontificum to work.— if that’s possible. Of course had there been men like you (ie willing to fight) at the Vatican Council, the T. L. M. never would have defenestrated.
I for my part have been following your work with interest since the Summer of Shame (August 2018 Infamous ‘Uncle’ Ted McCarrick’s Outing) and would like to thank you for your advocacy on behalf of all the James Greins of the world. You are doing God’s work, not to mention yeoman’s labor.
Thank you for your prayers, it means a lot to me and my family, and yes of course Christ Vanquishes in the end.
This has nothing to do with liturgy and *everything* to do with exercising power and intimidating the faithful, keeping them on the level of medieval serfs, grateful for any smidgeon of favor from their episcopal "betters" (an absurd term if there ever was one concerning Catholic prelates).
Martin is nothing but a papalist sycophant who stuck his finger in his mouth and held it up to the wind. If Francis's successor made Pius XII look like Cardinal Bernardin, he would have become "more traditionalist than thou."
This garbage disgusts me! The pastors should tell Martin where he can stick his letter and continue to offer the TLM as if he had never been born. The only way this nonsense stops is with clerical non-compliance, just like Martin Luther King and Gandhi behaved. But do priests have that kind of courage these days?
The point made by CP Benischeck below points to the core of the issue of the imposition of the Novus Ordo over the traditional Mass. That is, they are very different liturgies and, with the greatest respect, while I accept the point about treating the Novus Ordo as reverentially as the traditional Mass, the differences are far deeper than language or chant.
There are many deletions of prayers throughout the Novus Ordo liturgy and the totality means that, while, yes, it is the Mass, the knowledge of the Truth, because of ambiguities, leads to an interpretation of Christianity being the religion of ‘nice’.
Ironically, as a lay person, while I was very conscious of the fact that the traditional Mass catechises me, it was not until Traditiones Custodes that I compared the two liturgies, an action propelled by confusion as to what these people are afraid of. As I was very familiar with the history of the reformation, on studying the Novus Ordo changes, it became apparent that many of them reflected the changes instituted by Thomas Cranmer into the Catholic Mass under Henry viii. These changes were for the express objective of focussing the congregation upon the powers of the king (the state), drawing a link between the power of the king and divine authority and reducing the liturgy to a naturalistic focus, ridding of supernatural direction. When Cranmer was criticised by the puritans for instituting a liturgy that was too ‘Catholic’, he responded that his liturgy had the intention of creating a rejection of belief in the Real Presence by such practices as standing while receiving communion and receiving in the hand. There were also introduced ‘pleading prayers’- what is called in the NO, ‘prayers of the faithful’ the purpose of which was to reduce the liturgy to a secular and material affirmation of the role of God in the state and daily life.
So, if you compare the formation that is the result of the traditional Mass - one where the Truth is presented and consequential upon the ancient Jewish Temple, with a liturgy that is amputated from the past, from the Jewish roots and is designed to interpret in a modern context, then to present this liturgy in Latin is merely cosmetic. It is the core of the liturgy that cuts through to the truth like a knife through to the bone- it is that which ‘they’ fear. And this discomfort with the formation of those who attend the traditional Mass is the ever-present discomfort that one saw in St John Fisher, St Henry More, the Catholics under the communists, the Catholics under the Nazis - the knowledge of truth and the courage to say ‘no’- even when the culture tells one that to say ‘no’ is not ‘nice’.
When you combine the active sexually disordered cleric with the Novus Ordo innovative Liturgy ,it was and is a toxic recipe for a celebration of blasphemy.
I witnessed this many times . One thirty some Italian man years ago told me after he walked out of the parish Mass that if he wanted to see women dancing around in leotards , he just had to go up to the local Jazzercise Class in the strip shopping center and look in the window.
Another couple told me about the casual , "Mother Earth Day" Liturgy ( Palm Sunday ) in which the rainbow vested priest sat cross legged on the floor and handed out "consecrated" pieces of bread he broke.
We decided to opt for an Easter Rite Catholic Liturgy after a RC Easter service which was highlighted by the pastor talking sports walking around the aisles with a traveling microphone .
Nothing was said about Christ's Resurrection........JUST SPORTS !
Are we sure the consequences of the Novus Ordo were unintended? When reverence declines, vocations dry up, and moral boundaries erode, can that all be accidental? If the Eucharist is no longer central, and the priest indistinct from the layman, was that a byproduct, or the plan?
While being an altar boy and having an inspiring liturgical experience can help foster vocations, I think young straight men are motivated to become priests more by holy, inspiring, straight priests who themselves became priests, not because they didn't like girls, but because they felt they had a vocation from Christ. The increase in homosexuals in the priesthood, and even more so in the episcopate, has had a negative impact on heterosexual priest recruitment and retention. I documented this development in www.gomulka.net/Seminaries.pdf
Appreciate the dialogue. I raise this as an ally in The Faith, not an adversary.
Figures like Bishop Martins, Rembert Weakland, and laicized ex-Cardinal McCarrick didn’t emerge in isolation, they were shaped, advanced, and shielded by a post-conciliar system that diverged sharply from the centuries prior. That shift wasn’t just cultural; it was structural.
The scale of abuse in Pennsylvania (I grew up in Pittsburgh and zero of the PA Atty General report shocks me at all), Massachusetts, Ireland, and within orders like the LaSallian and Irish Christian Brothers points to something deeper than isolated failure. Yes, abuse existed before Vatican II, but was it this widespread, this systemically enabled, this unaccountable?
If these patterns have persisted globally for over 50 years, at what point is it reasonable to ask whether the outcomes were intended? Systems produce what they’re designed, or allowed, to produce. And when today’s prelates continue to protect, promote, and perpetuate those same systems, isn’t that question of intent not just fair, but necessary?
This suggested "solution" is itself already a target of bishops like Martin - witness his incredibly tone-deaf draft document on proposed changes to the Novus Ordo in his diocese. As much as I would love to agree with you, I think this is a pipe dream. The Modernists will never allow it.
Thank you for your participation in the discussion in response to my article, “The Liturgy Wars.” I find that the comments following certain articles are sometimes more interesting than the article itself. It will be interesting to see not only what Pope Leo XIV will do with Traditionis Custodes, but if he, like his three predecessors, will continue to allow bishops who engage in or cover up abuse to go undisciplined. If millions of Catholics have left the Catholic Church over the past decade, it’s because of moral and doctrinal issues, far more than the way Mass is celebrated. Nevertheless, I pray that your prayer life will strengthen your faith, and your faith will deepen your prayer life. Oremus pro invicem, GTG
My impression after attending Mass in more places than I can remember, is that the NO feels like a performance for the congregation, and the TLM is worshiping God. I will say that during Covid I watched the livestream at St.John Cantius where they did both forms of the
One cannot deny that the vertical dimension is stronger in the TLM than the horizontal dimension in the NO. My hope is that celebrating the NO in Latin with Gregorian Chant could strengthen the vertical dimension that is often lacking.
Thank you for your participation in the discussion in response to my article, “The Liturgy Wars.” I find that the comments following certain articles are sometimes more interesting than the article itself. It will be interesting to see not only what Pope Leo XIV will do with Traditionis Custodes, but if he, like his three predecessors, will continue to allow bishops who engage in or cover up abuse to go undisciplined. If millions of Catholics have left the Catholic Church over the past decade, it’s because of moral and doctrinal issues, far more than the way Mass is celebrated. Nevertheless, I pray that your prayer life will strengthen your faith, and your faith will deepen your prayer life. Oremus pro invicem, GTG
You can always find these abuses like this, just like you can identify predator priests who don't represent ALL priests. How about if I were to post a video of a Christmas Midnight Mass celebrated by Pope JP II in Latin using the Novus Ordo in St.Peter's Basilica?
After reading some of the comments above, I want to make it clear that I grew up with the TLM which was only replaced by the Novus Ordo (NO) one year before I graduated from college. Because I celebrated Mass in Latin using the NO in Rome and in other parts of the world, I appreciated the fact that Catholics from different countries from all over the world had no problem following the Mass. Most Catholics in the world today never attended a TLM. While the 15-20 minute daily “low mass” in Latin was not very inspiring, people like myself who grew up serving Mass and memorizing the prayers at the foot of the altar in Latin miss the “high Masses” complete with Gregorian Chant and incense. When people from different countries go to Rome and attend Mass in St Peter’s Basilica, they can all follow it easily because it’s the same NO Mass they have at home only now in Latin. Attending a TLM Mass today for many Catholics could be as foreign to them as if they attended an Eastern Rite Mass in Greek, Ukrainian, Arabic, etc. How many people heard, “It was nice to be able to go to church in that foreign country and be able to follow the Mass”?
How do we go back? Or how do we go forward? I do not know. Most Catholics now know less Latin than ever. But Fr. Donald Kloster, a cancelled priest down around San Antone now, has released some impressive surveys that show that in the main only those who attend the TLM actually tend to believe in the truths of the Catholic faith; and furthermore, this is the only segment of the church that is demographically growing.
It's not just the Mass, the language, or the particular form. You need good, holy priests and not closeted frauds. I admit that Catholics who attend the TLM tend to believe the authentic teachings of the Church and dioceses that are shepherded by straight bishops have more vocations and better attended services. Because these families rejected the pro-LGBTQ agenda of Pope Francis, I believe he saw them and TLM Mass communities as obstacles to his efforts to get Catholics to accept homosexual relationships on par with heterosexual marriage. Note that you don't find straight bishops opposing Catholics who attend TLM like you do gay bishops.
Father Gene I have the upmost respect for you and gratitude for all you do for the victims of clergy abuse, but I believe your solution would deepen the wounds and the ever mounting tensions and divisions among those who identify as Roman Catholics.
Is the Latin language itself important? Yes, and for many reasons. As I understand it Latin is an extremely precise language and still lives as a root language and has theological, legal and medical use. It is difficult to try and change the meaning of Latin words and that is a very important reason why those who are passionate about preserving the Catholic Faith and Church as Jesus Christ founded it are insistent about the TLM. We have seen our Catholic Faith continually watered down to the point where many Catholics believe we are now compromising with Freemasonry, Satanism (including ordained priests who lead double lives and perform Black Masses) and various forms of paganism including the worship or invocation of false gods and demons, not to mention all the new age beliefs that also worm their way in.
The fact that in the TLM the priest faces the altar of God, as opposed to the Novus Ordo where the priest faces the people, is absolutely key to how we relate to God and live out our Catholic faith.
Many truly faithful Catholics are coming to realize just how devastating modernism has been to Catholic Church. They see clearly how our universal Catholic Church is being manipulated to become a church that embraces universalism promoting the lie that no souls are in danger of spending an eternity in hell. It’s reaching a point where many believe that the schools of Sedevacantism offer the only rational and reasonable position because the head of the church, many in the hierarchy,have gone into full blown apostasy so that the head has separated itself from the true Mystical Body of Christ. And those who want to remain faithful to Jesus Christ and His Church do not want to be complicit with the “ape of a church” because of their great love for both God and other human beings. They believe the salvation of souls is a primary concern and that only Truth Incarnate leads to salvation.
We had Latin English Missals where texts were displayed side by side in elementary school. This isn’t an insurmountable problem, but a “false peace” is no peace at all.
When Bergoglio claimed to be pope I said I had “set my face like flint” against the “new religion of the synodal church.”
And now under new leadership I say that I have “set my face like flint against unity at all costs, a false unity, that sacrifices Truth itself.”
Virgo Potens Ora Pro Nobis!
I have the deepest respect for those who attend the TLM who I have found often uphold the authentic teachings of the Church better than most of the Catholics who attend NO services. I wandered if homosexual clerics who know TLM Catholics are less inclined to buy the James Martin arguments on homosexuality are trying to shut you down as threats to their attempts to change the Church’s teaching on homosexuality? I can understand your point about not facing the people which makes more sense when one’s NO prayers are not as vertical as those of the TLM.
I never thought I'd agree in essence with Francis I, but the TLM "liturgy war" is, I must admit, a cover for war against Vatican II. All the "Latin indults" in the world will never satisfy these people, and Bergoglio knew it. They reject ecumenism entirely, abhor the idea of Church as "the Pilgrim People of God ", and I think in their heart of hearts they would disavow Nostra Aetate.
That's why it's important to distinguish between the anti-Vatican II Catholics who will not accept some of the valid improvements/corrections that were made during the Council, verses the good Catholics who attend TLM services looking for an inspiring lilturgy with good preaching that helps them lead good Catholic/Christian lives. I liked the fact that Catholics from all over the world could follow and relate to the Novus Ordo Mass in Latin that I celebrated in St. Peter's Basilica. One commentator wrote that a priest in New York successfully did what I suggested. I'll have to look up that priest and see if he's still alive.
Hey, when I meet someone who actually endorses [and knows] Trent, Vatican I, the Syllabus, and Pascendi on top of Vincent, Augustine, Chrysostom and Bonaventure, I'll gladly listen to their view on Vatican II.
Don’t know all that. Love Vatican I. Pius IX was the longest reigning Pope in history after St. Peter hisself plus he declared not only Papal Infallibilty but the Immaculate Conception—endorsed four years later by the Queen of Heaven at Lourdes.
To me, not having read all the ambiguous blah blah blah documents, V2 sure seems like a dumpster fire for true devotion and any actual knowledge of the Faith.
Fr. Gomulka, where’s that SpringTime ya’ll are talking about? For me, like I’ve heard many you get T. L. M. priests say, I’m just waiting for all these 60’s ol’ geezers—and their spawn like Poof Martin (the Charlotte Massacre one, not the Park Avenue one—although a pox on him too) — to die out.
Just keep in mind the labyrinthine stacks of verbiage in Vatican II are bigger than all the previous councils combined. You could read all the other councils in a year in less time than wading through the VII docs, and thereby be able to spot the most egregious departures people make either by means of VII or its "Spirit"
lol! Life is short and art is long. I think I’d rather read the other stuff.
But we never would have lost that universality you (and I) praise had we merely kept the Mass Perennis Ordo.
What about the things that were wrong about V2, and its ‘interpretation?’
He is.
I discovered the charges against him that I just read online. Sad. But you admit that many people found the NO Mass in Latin in Manhattan with all the "bells and whistles" to be inspiring? I can remember bringing sailors and Marines and their families from Naples to attend midnight Latin NO Mass in St. Peter's celebrated by JP II. A number of them returned to Naples saying that that was the most inspiring Mass they ever attended.
Yes, Counsellor: I admit.
Still not as good as an everyday TLM High Mass, however, not by a long shot.
Do you know more about the charges being dismissed? It's sad that the media report accusations, but don't report the charges being dismissed. That happened in Buffalo when two seminarians were maliciously prosecuted for protesting outside the Buffalo Chancery. The charges were dismissed and most media outlets never reported the outcome.
Yes. I personally remember the NY D. A. dropped the charges at the time mid-Covid madness.
Reportage here:
https://www.renewamerica.com/columns/abbott/210619
And yes a sad [] end to a great career, despite the charges being dismissed, to an impressive career—some of his books are as good as Illustrissimi.
For example, “Coincidentally.” Try not to bust a gut reading his impersonation of a Louis Farrakhan speech at the Million Man March.
"These people" -- who?? -- "reject ecumenism entirely" -- do they?? which 'ecumenism'? The ecumenism of the 'spirit of V2,' i.e., false irenicism (also rejected by the real V2)? Such a vague charge ironically smacks of the kind of arrogant triumphalism that V2 (in theory) was supposed to put to rest. In reality, knee jerk dismissals of "these people" who dare to question V2 has become its own kind of embarrassingly unintelligent triumphalism. It's the gross hypocrisy of the crowd who self-righteously exclude anyone who doesn't measure up to their arbitrary standards of inclusiveness. Whatever happened to that talk about 'dialogue,' people??
More than just the beautiful TLM went south with Vatican Two !
Our pastor taught us Religion class three times a week giving us blow by blow decisions that were being proposed and implemented during Vatican Two.
When he said that seminarians were no longer going to be taught that Satan was a real entity and evil was really only in the hearts of men, I raised my hand and asked how they would believe in God then when they became priests?
I have several difficulties with this article.
First, it is historically disprovable that if the Novus Ordo had been done in Latin, the movement to retain the TLM would never have happened. Una Voce, which was established in 1965 first of all to defend Latin & chant, pivoted in 1969 to defend the old Roman Rite, which they could see had been gutted in the reforms of Paul VI. And this continues to the present: given the option of a Latin Novus Ordo or a TLM, educated traditionally minded Catholics choose the latter, it's not even a struggle. We ARE aware of the profound differences because (a) the rites are actually quite different, this is not hard to see, and (b) most of us have missals and we read them.
Second, if there is such a diversity of rites in the Catholic Church, why would it be harmful to have more than one version of the Roman one? As Ratzinger says, before the council there were parishes that celebrated the Dominican rite, and some the Carmelite. We can handle this diversity. Uniformity and unity are two very different things.
Third, the Eastern rites traditionally used sacral languages that developed out of vernaculars that were long since no longer spoken. Just because in the USA the most common language for Eastern Catholic worship is English doesn't mean that historically they were unfamiliar with the concept of a language reserved for divine worship. Plus, you note that Christ used Hebrew for His prayers. By the time of the apostles, Hebrew had LONG since ceased to be the vernacular. Jesus Himself sets the example.
Four, the Latin Novus Ordo is a non-starter for several reasons, most of which I go into here:
https://onepeterfive.com/latin-novus-ordo-not-solution/
Thanks for all your good work even if we don't agree on this topic.
Thank you for your participation in the discussion in response to my article, “The Liturgy Wars.” I find that the comments following certain articles are sometimes more interesting than the article itself. It will be interesting to see not only what Pope Leo XIV will do with Traditionis Custodes, but if he, like his three predecessors, will continue to allow bishops who engage in or cover up abuse to go undisciplined. If millions of Catholics have left the Catholic Church over the past decade, it’s because of moral and doctrinal issues, far more than the way Mass is celebrated. Nevertheless, I pray that your prayer life will strengthen your faith, and your faith will deepen your prayer life. Oremus pro invicem, GTG
"If millions of Catholics have left the Catholic Church over the past decade, it’s because of moral and doctrinal issues, far more than the way Mass is celebrated."
This, in fact, is certainly not true of Catholics in the 1960s and 1970s, who were barely aware of clerical sex abuse. But still, millions stopped going to church and there is not only anecdotal evidence but documented evidence that for many of them it was the craziness with the Mass that pushed them out the door. The working classes and men particularly hated the Novus Ordo, as Cardinal Heenan predicted in 1967.
Here are two interesting articles based on sociological data:
http://www.lmschairman.org/2013/06/a-sociologist-on-latin-mass.html
http://www.lmschairman.org/2013/07/the-old-mass-and-workers.html
I'm looking at this from the perspective of ministering to the some 99% of Catholics who do not attend the TLM. One commentator wrote how one priest in Manatten very successfully did what I suggested. The response he described was similar to attending Christmas Midnight Mass in St. Peter's conducted by Pope John Paul II in Latin using the Novus Ordo. I disagree that the NO was never intended to be celebrated in Latin. Having celebrated Mass many times in Latin in St. Peter's, Catholics from all over the world in attendance could follow it well because it was the same Mass they were used to only now in Latin for the international congregation. With priest friends like Father Jim Altman and others who celebrate the TLM, I'm not saying that it shouldn't be allowed. I'm just saying I believe the Church lost something very beautiful when it adopted the Novus Ordo the way it did by not offering it both in English and in Latin. I would bet you, if the bishop allowed me as an abuse whistleblower to pastor one of the parishes in my town, and if I offered one of the Sunday Masses in Latin using the Novus Ordo accompanied by Gregorian Chant, I believe it would be very well attended. PS. While I wrote that Jesus prayed in Hebrew, he spoke Aramaic and probably Greek. I laugh when I read comments from some people (not you), who argue that the TLM dates back to Christ himself.
Interposing here - there is an inherent assumption that people cannot understand any language other than their mother tongue and that words are the only mechanism by which we understand the world. First, if one is interested, one can read /study to acquaint oneself sufficiently to participate in a liturgy that is somewhat more challenging than the lowest bar. Why is it that worship of God is required to have no effort?
Secondly, if one is completely incapable of study or comprehension in a foreign language (simply visit Europe and you will discover those who speak many languages), then even without words, one can still absorb the liturgy. There is an assumption that the responses given in the NO have more meaning than those in the TLM. As the TLM responses are pretty straightforward, we do understand what we are saying - and I am not so sure that the flat English responses in the NO evince any greater reverence. Finally, as a nine year old child, when our priest celebrated Mass during the week, it was a low TLM - very unsophisticated and plain, no beauty - a sparse hall for a church and a very dull, uncharismatic priest. I took myself off to Mass every morning, on my own, (without parents), because I loved the traditional Mass. I did not understand a word of Latin, but I felt something that I responded to. So, to assume that, in order to worship, one must understand is to miss to nuance of worship - it is not about control - it is in a way, about the opposite - just submitting- and the traditional Mass allows this in every way for each person differently
Thank you for your participation in the discussion in response to my article, “The Liturgy Wars.” I find that the comments following certain articles are sometimes more interesting than the article itself. It will be interesting to see not only what Pope Leo XIV will do with Traditionis Custodes, but if he, like his three predecessors, will continue to allow bishops who engage in or cover up abuse to go undisciplined. If millions of Catholics have left the Catholic Church over the past decade, it’s because of moral and doctrinal issues, far more than the way Mass is celebrated. Nevertheless, I pray that your prayer life will strengthen your faith, and your faith will deepen your prayer life. Oremus pro invicem, GTG
I understand. It's just that there's a reason the Latin Novus Ordo never took off, and that's because it was DESIGNED for easy comprehension. Latin is never going to be for easy comprehension; but its use is good for very different reasons, which I won't go into here, and that's why the TLM should remain in Latin (and not be done into the vernacular, as some have suggested as a "way forward").
I do agree, however, that a Latin Novus Ordo with chant would be well attended, mostly because the alternatives are so lacking!
Yes, it's a shame that some folks never take time to study the history of liturgy. It's quite fascinating.
It was designed for easy comprehension? Well, maybe; but still, the notion that it serves that purpose seems facile at best. From your article, Shaw writes: "The Novus Ordo is geared towards verbal comprehension. ... Yes, we get the message, at the intellectual, word-by-word level." But really?? Then why does the priest, after listening to/reading the scriptures plainly read in the vernacular, constantly spout sheer nonsense in his homily? Why do the people, after reciting the Creed in the vernacular, not actually understand (or believe!) the articles of belief they have just recited? The Catholic faith is designed for those who love God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength, not for those seeking easy comprehension. Changing the language does nothing to change that fact. Design for easy comprehension requires changing the faith, not just the language.
Of course. I agree with you. The vernacular is not a magic bullet and never has been.
Indians do not speak Syriac and yet, aside from recent meddling in their liturgy too, they have been in union with Rome now despite their past adoption of the rite as an act of schism due to disagreements with Portuguese Jesuits:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQxG0p8DOq0
An advantage TLM Catholics have over the Novus Ordo Catholics is that we TLM Catholics intimately know both forms of the Mass. Here’s why I prefer the TLM:
1. Ad orientem
2. It is seamless and flowing
3. The priest checks his ego in the sacristy and becomes in persona Christi
4. Altar boys take pride in their duties and the precision in which they execute them
5. Only consecrated hands touch the consecrated hosts
6. The faithful are dressed modestly and in their best clothes
7. No socializing in the pews, before, during or after Mass
8. Priest follows the rubrics and wears the proper colored vestments with no ad lib pablum
9. Priest reads the Epistle and the Gospel
10. Only beautiful Gregorian Chant and Catholic Hymns are sung
11. Pipe organ
12. Sermons that are short, powerful and based in Catholic doctrine
13. Dozens upon dozens upon dozens of young children, toddlers and infants, many of them restless, and some of them crying, with a big brother or big sister helping mom and dad to keep decorum
14. Pews filled with the most genuine, generous and faithful Catholics.
15. Little, ancient ladies praying their rosaries
16. At least two priests hearing Confessions before and during Mass up to the Sanctus
17. If not in the state of Grace and I don’t go to Communion, there’s no shame as dozens around me are in the same predicament.
It’s not about the Latin. It’s about every action, word and song directed to God, creating an atmosphere where I find it easy to surrender my heart and soul and mind to God for that 60-90 minutes.
Thank you for your participation in the discussion in response to my article, “The Liturgy Wars.” I find that the comments following certain articles are sometimes more interesting than the article itself. It will be interesting to see not only what Pope Leo XIV will do with Traditionis Custodes, but if he, like his three predecessors, will continue to allow bishops who engage in or cover up abuse to go undisciplined. If millions of Catholics have left the Catholic Church over the past decade, it’s because of moral and doctrinal issues, far more than the way Mass is celebrated. Nevertheless, I pray that your prayer life will strengthen your faith, and your faith will deepen your prayer life. Oremus pro invicem, GTG
At 74, I remember the TLM when it was the only game in town for Latin Rite Catholics. I disliked the original Novus Ordo not because it was in English or different but because it was ugly. As an aside the newer English Masses ordered by Pope Benedict are better. But there was no excuse for the original mess. Thomas Cramer produced a Church of England liturgy in the 1600s that is beautiful.
Thank you for your participation in the discussion in response to my article, “The Liturgy Wars.” I find that the comments following certain articles are sometimes more interesting than the article itself. It will be interesting to see not only what Pope Leo XIV will do with Traditionis Custodes, but if he, like his three predecessors, will continue to allow bishops who engage in or cover up abuse to go undisciplined. If millions of Catholics have left the Catholic Church over the past decade, it’s because of moral and doctrinal issues, far more than the way Mass is celebrated. Nevertheless, I pray that your prayer life will strengthen your faith, and your faith will deepen your prayer life. Oremus pro invicem, GTG
The underlying question here is, what's wrong with the Novus Ordo, if anything? To propose NO in Latin suggests the problem is just (or mainly) the use of the vernacular. I think very few people would agree with that assessment of the issue.
Thank you for your participation in the discussion in response to my article, “The Liturgy Wars.” I find that the comments following certain articles are sometimes more interesting than the article itself. It will be interesting to see not only what Pope Leo XIV will do with Traditionis Custodes, but if he, like his three predecessors, will continue to allow bishops who engage in or cover up abuse to go undisciplined. If millions of Catholics have left the Catholic Church over the past decade, it’s because of moral and doctrinal issues, far more than the way Mass is celebrated. Nevertheless, I pray that your prayer life will strengthen your faith, and your faith will deepen your prayer life. Oremus pro invicem, GTG
While people want to acknowledge shortcomings in the NO, unfortunately, they don't want to acknowledge shortcomings in the TLM. Did you know that the TLM Missal did not include parables such as the Prodigal Son, along with the Pharisee and the Tax collector, because the TLM excluded the Gospels according to Luke and Mark? The TLM and the NO both have their strengths and weaknesses.
I think for many partisans of the Usus Antiquior, your argument is like comparing one's mother to the whore that your father has been seeing, and saying, "Well, but, did you know your mother isn't as well read as the whore? They both have their strengths and weaknesses." The point is that the New Thing, whatever its incidentally charming features you might wish to point to, is based on fundamentally corrupt premises. (FWIW, personally, if you give me the Latin NO and throw in ad orientem, altar rails, and chant, I'd much appreciate your efforts.)
And, I might add, the vicious condemnation of the "perfidious" Jews is also in the TLM Missal Easter Vigil Intercessions.
Thank you for your participation in the discussion in response to my article, “The Liturgy Wars.” I find that the comments following certain articles are sometimes more interesting than the article itself. It will be interesting to see not only what Pope Leo XIV will do with Traditionis Custodes, but if he, like his three predecessors, will continue to allow bishops who engage in or cover up abuse to go undisciplined. If millions of Catholics have left the Catholic Church over the past decade, it’s because of moral and doctrinal issues, far more than the way Mass is celebrated. Nevertheless, I pray that your prayer life will strengthen your faith, and your faith will deepen your prayer life. Oremus pro invicem, GTG
Saint Jogn Chrysostom got way more down to brass tacks than that, and every single thing he said was correct.
Aside from that, it was replaced by genuflecting in the 1962 missal in the prayer, which is inappropriate, and the new prayers are blasphemous outright.
I respect your take on this but I think some quarters of the traditionalist movement take issue with certain prayers being dropped before the 1970 Missal as well as innovations in the texts of the Eucharistic prayers. This is why Bouyer, Bugnini and others crop up in discussions. True, many TLM attendees don't know much Latin and even less Greek (thanks to Ben Jonson for that one-liner), but I do wonder about the intentions of the Council fathers when it came to expressing the meaning of the Eucharist in the prayers that are used every week.
Augustinus, I got to a TLM high mass last night (Ascension). I don’t get to often anymore unfortunately, only a few times a year. But I noticed during the prayer of consecration how quiet it was. Everyone knew what the priest was praying even though it was silent. You could have heard a pin drop even though there were large families there. It does not matter if you know any Latin or Greek, you know what is going on by the atmosphere, the beautiful music, the smell of the incense. I felt like I was in heaven. It turned out the sermon was about the fact that the kingdom of heaven is here in the church.
Thank you for your participation in the discussion in response to my article, “The Liturgy Wars.” I find that the comments following certain articles are sometimes more interesting than the article itself. It will be interesting to see not only what Pope Leo XIV will do with Traditionis Custodes, but if he, like his three predecessors, will continue to allow bishops who engage in or cover up abuse to go undisciplined. If millions of Catholics have left the Catholic Church over the past decade, it’s because of moral and doctrinal issues, far more than the way Mass is celebrated. Nevertheless, I pray that your prayer life will strengthen your faith, and your faith will deepen your prayer life. Oremus pro invicem, GTG
This is it! The NO even in Latin with ‘bells and smells’ is not the TLM. Since discovering our liturgical heritage (Thanks to Pope Benedict XVI) I have assisted at the TLM as much as possible. I had almost 4 years of daily Mass in the EF before our Bishop stopped it. In those 4 years I overcame habitual sin to a large extent, and began to recognise the fullness of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Now back to daily NO it is such a struggle. There is no silence, no time I can truly pray from the heart. If I was hard of hearing at least I could take my hearing aids out, but I have hyper acute hearing meaning microphoned Masses are seriously painful. I have to church-hop I don’t belong in any of them. But it is not about me - it’s about Almighty God, and the reverence and honour due to Him.
Nothing in the NO offered versus populum makes us realise the Sacrifice is offered to God., even in the vernacular. This is why I think that allowing versus populum is the most damaging change. Very few priests or laity understand the Mass now. I’m not saying I do either - the majority of my life has been at the NO., I’m well aware of what I lack. But now I have had a glimpse of heaven - I do all I can to be at the TLM.
I am not against the TLM. What I am suggesting is that many Catholics may be inspired as you are with the TLM by attending a NO Mass in Latin with Gregorian Chant, etc.
Perhaps. It’s definitely a possibility.
The versus populum shift was quite an add on from that period, made it perfect for predators to scan their congregation.
Thank you for your participation in the discussion in response to my article, “The Liturgy Wars.” I find that the comments following certain articles are sometimes more interesting than the article itself. It will be interesting to see not only what Pope Leo XIV will do with Traditionis Custodes, but if he, like his three predecessors, will continue to allow bishops who engage in or cover up abuse to go undisciplined. If millions of Catholics have left the Catholic Church over the past decade, it’s because of moral and doctrinal issues, far more than the way Mass is celebrated. Nevertheless, I pray that your prayer life will strengthen your faith, and your faith will deepen your prayer life. Oremus pro invicem, GTG
Love you too, Padre, I hope you run the race to the end. Don't stop pushing for justice.
In my opinion, the world is not made better by insisting all flowers look the same.
No, but then again you can’t put lipstick on a pig.
Thank you for your participation in the discussion in response to my article, “The Liturgy Wars.” I find that the comments following certain articles are sometimes more interesting than the article itself. It will be interesting to see not only what Pope Leo XIV will do with Traditionis Custodes, but if he, like his three predecessors, will continue to allow bishops who engage in or cover up abuse to go undisciplined. If millions of Catholics have left the Catholic Church over the past decade, it’s because of moral and doctrinal issues, far more than the way Mass is celebrated. Nevertheless, I pray that your prayer life will strengthen your faith, and your faith will deepen your prayer life. Oremus pro invicem, GTG
Sunday After the Ascension
Fr. Gomulka, You’re most welcome. Well you’ve got a good readership.
If men like you were made bishops and offered the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in the manner you suggest your plan might have had a chance of working. That’s the only way for the cross pollination of Pope Benedict’s idea in Summorum Pontificum to work.— if that’s possible. Of course had there been men like you (ie willing to fight) at the Vatican Council, the T. L. M. never would have defenestrated.
I for my part have been following your work with interest since the Summer of Shame (August 2018 Infamous ‘Uncle’ Ted McCarrick’s Outing) and would like to thank you for your advocacy on behalf of all the James Greins of the world. You are doing God’s work, not to mention yeoman’s labor.
Thank you for your prayers, it means a lot to me and my family, and yes of course Christ Vanquishes in the end.
In Corde Christi,
Christopher P. Benischek
This has nothing to do with liturgy and *everything* to do with exercising power and intimidating the faithful, keeping them on the level of medieval serfs, grateful for any smidgeon of favor from their episcopal "betters" (an absurd term if there ever was one concerning Catholic prelates).
Martin is nothing but a papalist sycophant who stuck his finger in his mouth and held it up to the wind. If Francis's successor made Pius XII look like Cardinal Bernardin, he would have become "more traditionalist than thou."
This garbage disgusts me! The pastors should tell Martin where he can stick his letter and continue to offer the TLM as if he had never been born. The only way this nonsense stops is with clerical non-compliance, just like Martin Luther King and Gandhi behaved. But do priests have that kind of courage these days?
If they did have real courage more would come forth and raise havoc protesting their peers perverted sexual aberrations.
I recommend Dr. Peter Kwasniewski’s recent book, Close the Workshop: Why the Old Mass isn’t Broken and the New Mass Can’t be Fixed.
https://angelicopress.com/cdn/shop/files/KWASNIEWSKI-CLOSETHEWORKSHOP.jpg?v=1739373317&width=990
Thanks, Patricia!
The point made by CP Benischeck below points to the core of the issue of the imposition of the Novus Ordo over the traditional Mass. That is, they are very different liturgies and, with the greatest respect, while I accept the point about treating the Novus Ordo as reverentially as the traditional Mass, the differences are far deeper than language or chant.
There are many deletions of prayers throughout the Novus Ordo liturgy and the totality means that, while, yes, it is the Mass, the knowledge of the Truth, because of ambiguities, leads to an interpretation of Christianity being the religion of ‘nice’.
Ironically, as a lay person, while I was very conscious of the fact that the traditional Mass catechises me, it was not until Traditiones Custodes that I compared the two liturgies, an action propelled by confusion as to what these people are afraid of. As I was very familiar with the history of the reformation, on studying the Novus Ordo changes, it became apparent that many of them reflected the changes instituted by Thomas Cranmer into the Catholic Mass under Henry viii. These changes were for the express objective of focussing the congregation upon the powers of the king (the state), drawing a link between the power of the king and divine authority and reducing the liturgy to a naturalistic focus, ridding of supernatural direction. When Cranmer was criticised by the puritans for instituting a liturgy that was too ‘Catholic’, he responded that his liturgy had the intention of creating a rejection of belief in the Real Presence by such practices as standing while receiving communion and receiving in the hand. There were also introduced ‘pleading prayers’- what is called in the NO, ‘prayers of the faithful’ the purpose of which was to reduce the liturgy to a secular and material affirmation of the role of God in the state and daily life.
So, if you compare the formation that is the result of the traditional Mass - one where the Truth is presented and consequential upon the ancient Jewish Temple, with a liturgy that is amputated from the past, from the Jewish roots and is designed to interpret in a modern context, then to present this liturgy in Latin is merely cosmetic. It is the core of the liturgy that cuts through to the truth like a knife through to the bone- it is that which ‘they’ fear. And this discomfort with the formation of those who attend the traditional Mass is the ever-present discomfort that one saw in St John Fisher, St Henry More, the Catholics under the communists, the Catholics under the Nazis - the knowledge of truth and the courage to say ‘no’- even when the culture tells one that to say ‘no’ is not ‘nice’.
When you combine the active sexually disordered cleric with the Novus Ordo innovative Liturgy ,it was and is a toxic recipe for a celebration of blasphemy.
I witnessed this many times . One thirty some Italian man years ago told me after he walked out of the parish Mass that if he wanted to see women dancing around in leotards , he just had to go up to the local Jazzercise Class in the strip shopping center and look in the window.
Another couple told me about the casual , "Mother Earth Day" Liturgy ( Palm Sunday ) in which the rainbow vested priest sat cross legged on the floor and handed out "consecrated" pieces of bread he broke.
We decided to opt for an Easter Rite Catholic Liturgy after a RC Easter service which was highlighted by the pastor talking sports walking around the aisles with a traveling microphone .
Nothing was said about Christ's Resurrection........JUST SPORTS !
Are we sure the consequences of the Novus Ordo were unintended? When reverence declines, vocations dry up, and moral boundaries erode, can that all be accidental? If the Eucharist is no longer central, and the priest indistinct from the layman, was that a byproduct, or the plan?
While being an altar boy and having an inspiring liturgical experience can help foster vocations, I think young straight men are motivated to become priests more by holy, inspiring, straight priests who themselves became priests, not because they didn't like girls, but because they felt they had a vocation from Christ. The increase in homosexuals in the priesthood, and even more so in the episcopate, has had a negative impact on heterosexual priest recruitment and retention. I documented this development in www.gomulka.net/Seminaries.pdf
Appreciate the dialogue. I raise this as an ally in The Faith, not an adversary.
Figures like Bishop Martins, Rembert Weakland, and laicized ex-Cardinal McCarrick didn’t emerge in isolation, they were shaped, advanced, and shielded by a post-conciliar system that diverged sharply from the centuries prior. That shift wasn’t just cultural; it was structural.
The scale of abuse in Pennsylvania (I grew up in Pittsburgh and zero of the PA Atty General report shocks me at all), Massachusetts, Ireland, and within orders like the LaSallian and Irish Christian Brothers points to something deeper than isolated failure. Yes, abuse existed before Vatican II, but was it this widespread, this systemically enabled, this unaccountable?
If these patterns have persisted globally for over 50 years, at what point is it reasonable to ask whether the outcomes were intended? Systems produce what they’re designed, or allowed, to produce. And when today’s prelates continue to protect, promote, and perpetuate those same systems, isn’t that question of intent not just fair, but necessary?
This suggested "solution" is itself already a target of bishops like Martin - witness his incredibly tone-deaf draft document on proposed changes to the Novus Ordo in his diocese. As much as I would love to agree with you, I think this is a pipe dream. The Modernists will never allow it.
Thank you for your participation in the discussion in response to my article, “The Liturgy Wars.” I find that the comments following certain articles are sometimes more interesting than the article itself. It will be interesting to see not only what Pope Leo XIV will do with Traditionis Custodes, but if he, like his three predecessors, will continue to allow bishops who engage in or cover up abuse to go undisciplined. If millions of Catholics have left the Catholic Church over the past decade, it’s because of moral and doctrinal issues, far more than the way Mass is celebrated. Nevertheless, I pray that your prayer life will strengthen your faith, and your faith will deepen your prayer life. Oremus pro invicem, GTG
My impression after attending Mass in more places than I can remember, is that the NO feels like a performance for the congregation, and the TLM is worshiping God. I will say that during Covid I watched the livestream at St.John Cantius where they did both forms of the
Mass beautifully.
One cannot deny that the vertical dimension is stronger in the TLM than the horizontal dimension in the NO. My hope is that celebrating the NO in Latin with Gregorian Chant could strengthen the vertical dimension that is often lacking.
Thank you for your participation in the discussion in response to my article, “The Liturgy Wars.” I find that the comments following certain articles are sometimes more interesting than the article itself. It will be interesting to see not only what Pope Leo XIV will do with Traditionis Custodes, but if he, like his three predecessors, will continue to allow bishops who engage in or cover up abuse to go undisciplined. If millions of Catholics have left the Catholic Church over the past decade, it’s because of moral and doctrinal issues, far more than the way Mass is celebrated. Nevertheless, I pray that your prayer life will strengthen your faith, and your faith will deepen your prayer life. Oremus pro invicem, GTG